Nonprofit Build Up® Podcast

Jennifer Toon, Executive Director of Lioness: Justice Impacted Women’s Alliance

Listen to Part Two:

Jennifer Toon is a passionate prison abolitionist. As a formerly incarcerated woman, her experience with the criminal legal system began at age 15 when she was adjudicated under Texas determinate sentencing laws. Her conviction started a long journey through 27 years of criminal justice involvement. Jennifer has been published in The Texas Observer, The Marshall Project, The Guardian and is also the co-host of On the Rec Yard: Women’s Prison Podcast. As the Project Director for Lioness, Jennifer aspires to use her lived experience to bring attention to the often-forgotten voices of other system-impacted women, youth, and people with disabilities. She lives in Austin, Texas with her cat Taylor, who embodies the mischievous energy of Taylor Swift.

Transcript for Part 1:

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:08] Nic Campbell: You’re listening to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. I’m your host, Nic Campbell. I want to support movements that can interrupt cycles of injustice and inequity and shift power towards vulnerable and marginalized communities. I’ve spent years working in and with nonprofits and philanthropies, and I know how important infrastructure is to outcomes. On this show, we’ll talk about how to build capacity to transform the way you and your organization work.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:38] SW: Hi, Build Up Community. We’re so glad you’re tuning in. I’m Stefanie Wong, Build Ups Executive Portfolio Manager. Today’s episode of the Build Up Podcast is an impactful one, titled Creating Capacity: The Role of Fiscal Sponsorship and Justice Reform. In this episode, we’re talking about the powerful impact of fiscal sponsorship in creating space for voices that have long been unheard. Jennifer Toon, Executive Director for Lioness JIWA, joins us to share her story and her passion for building trauma-informed leadership that uplifts ended powers. Together, we discuss the real challenges and strategies of fiscal sponsorship to develop meaningful support, resilience, and a stronger infrastructure for lasting change. Tune in to learn more about how these approaches to fiscal sponsorship can empower justice reform efforts, foster resilience, and build stronger support networks for lasting change in our communities.

[0:01:35] Jennifer Toon: I’m Jennifer, and welcome to the Nonprofit Build Up. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

[0:01:42] Stefanie Wong: Of course. I’m so looking forward to our conversation today, and to get us started, I’d love to hear a little bit more about you and the work that you’re doing.

[0:01:53] Jennifer Toon: Yeah. So, my name is Jennifer Toon. I am a formerly incarcerated woman, who served almost 20 years in the Texas Youth and Adult Criminal Justice System. I am originally from Deep East Texas, a little town called Kilgore out in rural East Texas. When I got out of prison about almost six years now, and I would be remiss and my friends would be like, “I can’t believe you didn’t mention it,” that I got out on Taylor Swift’s birthday on December 13^th, almost six years ago. I felt like, God’s way of just saying, “Jennifer, things are going to be okay. It’s going to be okay.”

I got out about six years ago, and I was on a really intense ankle monitor. It wouldn’t allow me to leave the house. I could only go to work and to programming. I spent that year at my parents’ house, really digging into groups online that were doing prison advocacy work. I had done a little writing for the prison newspaper when I was incarcerated. I started publishing a couple of pieces with the Marshall Project, with the Texas Observer, and then eventually, The Guardian. I couldn’t leave my house, but I used social media in the way that we know that social media works and was meant for, which was community.

Got to know people, got a fellowship here in Austin to work on criminal justice issues at the intersection of disability. I moved to Austin. I was in this space with other formerly incarcerated women that as we’re working on advocacy, we realized pretty quickly that there wasn’t a group that was devoted just to the experiences of system impacted girls, women and gender expansive people as well. That’s where the idea was born. It was a seed that was planted while I was incarcerated that, man, we should get out and use our experiences to make this better for the women that we leave behind. We should go to Austin. We didn’t know what we were going to do, right? Austin was the – it symbolized where change happened in Texas.

The idea for Lioness Justice Impacted Women’s Alliance was born and we put together this group. Didn’t know what we were doing. We just started doing it. Then as we were learning the things, what do we need to do in order to continue to grow and be taken seriously and be a nonprofit, we found Build Up Inc. I think the rest has been history so far.

[0:04:24] Stefanie Wong: That is just a really powerful story about how each step of your journey led you to exactly where you are today. I have lots of questions and I want to start with, what does justice impacted mean for you and for the work that you’re doing?

[0:04:42] Jennifer Toon: Yeah. We define justice impacted as anyone who has been touched by the criminal legal system. For our group and our mission being, to end the incarceration and devaluing of our population, who are justice impacted who identify as women, girls, or gender expansive people, and also to build power. Essentially, it’s anyone that has been directly touched by the criminal justice system.

[0:05:08] Stefanie Wong: Okay. Okay. What does Lioness JIWA focus on? What are its priorities now?

[0:05:16] Jennifer Toon: Yeah. Again, something that we’ve learned through this process of growing is like, you have a great idea, you have a great vision, now let’s sit down and work with some other partners to figure out how do you break that out? We just did a cohort with an organization called Measure here in Austin, who is also organization led by powerful black women, and they helped us break down, here’s the vision. Now, how do you accomplish that? How do you measure that? What are the outcomes?

We understand that we’re here for some legislative policy advocacy, right? Without lobbying, right? We had to learn that, too. All the ins and outs of that have been interesting. How do we do that? We teach our members how to do civic engagement with an education on the issues and the bills that are coming up, and also, leadership development. We’re working on a curriculum that’s trauma informed to help develop folks who are coming out of the system, how to find the inner leader in themselves, but through the lens of understanding what this trauma has done to us. It’s advocacy, but it’s a lot of peer support, a lot of community building.

[0:06:24] Stefanie Wong: Got it. You also mentioned working with Build Up Inc., and you’re a sponsored project of Build Up Inc. Can you say more about that partnership and that structure?

[0:06:35] Jennifer Toon: Yeah. What a godsend. I remember, as I didn’t know what my title was then. We were just a group of women trying to figure this out, right? “Well, Jennifer, you take the lead here.” What is this fiscal sponsorship? I was talking to someone that I work with in another space and he said, “Well, I’m going to be honest with you. A fiscal sponsorship may be what your group needs, because it can be very overwhelming as an executive director, as just trying to put together a nonprofit from scratch.” He said, “Do you still want to be able to do the work, while you’re learning to do that?” I said, “Well, yeah.” He said, “Well, then you need to find a fiscal sponsor.”

I did my own research. I said, I think this is the way to go for where we’re at right now. I was connected with a few other people. I reached out to different places and I kept hearing about, well, there’s this new fiscal sponsor, Build Up Inc. Here’s their information. You might want to try contact – Then I looked up on the website and I see that the focus is marginalized communities and being founded by a woman, I’m like, “Oh. Well, I need an interview right now, because I think this fits so much with the growth of our project.” I really wanted to support another place that is also with a focus on our population as women.

Went through that process. We signed the collaboration. My goodness, to be able to learn the ins and outs of a nonprofit and not just be fiscally sponsored, because there are lots of fiscal sponsors. This is fiscal sponsorship with capacity building. That means there’s trainings, there’s guidance. I’m not just here to do the administrative things and you not learn what’s going on, right? It’s been really important for us to have both of those components.

[0:08:23] Stefanie Wong: What is so critical about capacity building? We spend a lot of our time focused on capacity building and working with organizations and leaders like you around how do we build capacity so that you are best positioned to do your best work? What difference has that made for you? How do you think about capacity building, particularly when it comes to leadership?

[0:08:46] Jennifer Toon: Yeah. I think for me, it’s been having an entity be in charge and direct and oversee our administrative things, certainly gave me the capacity to continue to enjoy doing the work, but also at the same time, being able to learn that one day, I need to be able to know how to do that. Our organization will need to know how to do that. The training involved in it, we would have webinars, we have team meetings. To be able to understand, so these are the tools that you need to build your strength and your internal capacity to handle this on your own one day, right? For you to leave the nest and fly on your own, you’re going to have to learn these things. Building capacity and power, right? So, that I understand and can see where other nonprofits in this space have not done well.

It’s like, oh, that’s because what we learned over here was you have to have all the little things in place before you jump all the way to the big vision. We have to know how to have full-time staff, eventually. How do you invest in those leaders right now with what you have? Here’s a budget. Okay. To be able to build that in those fundamental block ways has been really important for us, and a really important lesson that I see a lot of places, and not even just system impacted led organizations, just miss the mark there because they’re not doing that fundamental brick building foundational that I’ve learned to do here.

[0:10:20] Stefanie Wong: Mm-hmm. What you’re talking about is really making sure that you have the infrastructure in place and the foundation in place to do your best work. To me, it lines up really nicely with something you said earlier, when you talked about trauma-based trainings around leadership. How do you recognize the trauma that you’ve experienced when you’re impacted by the system, and then step into leadership. I want to hear how you are building capacity in that context, where you’re acknowledging that trauma and then saying, “Here’s how we can continue to build your leadership in this space and in this work.” I’d love to hear how you are seeing that show up in the work that you are doing, that you’re helping others do and why is it so important to make sure that that leadership is trauma informed as well, or your approach?

[0:11:10] Jennifer Toon: Yeah. I mean, those are great questions. Acknowledging the mistakes. The group and in my leadership, many of us are part of the just leadership training cohort, a fantastic organization to help build leaders who are system impacted. Learning, thank God we had some pieces from somebody who had gone through that, two of the ladies that helped found Lioness had gone through just leadership. We had some of that, right? As the group continued to grow and move forward, and then I was accepted into the current just leadership cohort. Really understanding the way that you’re showing up as a leader. First of all, everybody is a leader. It doesn’t matter what title you have. Project director, executive director, it doesn’t matter.

Although, titles matter in a certain sense, too, because it helps people feel invested in role clarity. What we discovered through the mistakes that we’d made through the mistakes I had made, prison in my mental health, the trauma of all that, I was showing up really terrible, really terrible. My communication skill, my reaction to things. It was like, where is all this coming from? It’s coming from this, we’re serving a population that is us. We are just steadily just awash in this stew of trauma all the time. Leaving prison didn’t get rid of it, because we’re literally helping people who are us. That only reinforced it, right?

The things I learned at just leadership, the other things some of the women had learned, it’s like, we’ve got to be able, not all of our members can go through just leadership, which we certainly suggest that they do and apply for it. But what are the ways we’ve learned through that program that we could really start to hone and narrow specifically for the traumas that women and gender expansive people face in the Texas criminal legal system? How do we understand through that lens of trauma that that is where we show up all the time? How do we recognize that’s happening? How do we recognize when we’re triggered? How do we cope with that?

I know for my life, the second I started to work on that, and I see the other women around me start to work on that, we show up better. We’re not cussing each other out, or losing our anger in front of a legislator, which there’s always a place for emotion, but to just really recognize how you’re landing as a leader and what those key leadership qualities are, which is communication and modeling the way. I do see that ripple out to our members, right? Because we’re the one setting example, the executive team and the board and we’re the community examples.

Whatever way we lead, the rest of the membership is going to behave and think that that’s the norm here, the cultural norm here. And so, we need to do a really good job of making sure that we’re coming through in a healthy, consistent way for our leadership.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:14:13] Stefanie Wong: Thank you for tuning into our conversation titled Creating Capacity: The Role of Fiscal Sponsorship and Justice Reform on the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. If you’re interested in learning more about Build Up companies, please visit www.buildupcompanies.com.

[OUTRO]

[0:14:31] Nic Campbell: Thank you for listening to this episode of Nonprofit Build Up. To access the show notes, additional resources, and information on how you can work with us, please visit our website at buildupadvisory.com. We invite you to listen again next week as we share another episode about scaling impact by building infrastructure and capacity in the nonprofit sector. Keep building bravely.

Transcript for Part 2:

[INTRO]

[00:00:08] Nic Campbell: You’re listening to the Nonprofit Build Up podcast, and I’m your host,
Nic Campbell. I want to support movements that can interrupt cycles of injustice and inequity,
and shift power towards vulnerable and marginalized communities. I’ve spent years working in
and with nonprofits and philanthropies, and I know how important infrastructure is to outcomes.
On this show, we’ll talk about how to build capacity to transform the way you and your
organization work.

[00:00:38] Stephanie Wong: Hi, Build Up Community. We’re so glad you’re tuning in. I’m
Stefanie Wong, Build Up’s Executive Portfolio Manager. Today’s episode of the Build Up
Podcast is an impactful one titled Creating Capacity: The Role of Fiscal Sponsorship in Justice
Reform. In this episode, we’re talking about the powerful impact of fiscal sponsorship in creating
space for voices that have long been unheard.

Jennifer Toon, Executive Director for Lioness JIWA, joins us to share her story and her passion
for building trauma-informed leadership that uplifts and empowers. Together, we discuss the real
challenges and strategies of fiscal sponsorship to develop meaningful support, resilience, and a
stronger infrastructure for lasting change. Tune in to learn more about how these approaches to
fiscal sponsorship can empower justice reform efforts, foster resilience, and build stronger
support networks for lasting change in our communities.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:35] Nic Campbell: That all makes a lot of sense to me because what I’m hearing you
say is self-awareness, being really critical to good leadership, and I completely agree with that.
The more self-aware you are of your strengths, of areas where you need additional support. It’s
how you step fully into leadership. Just understanding how you need to build capacity and how
you can help others build capacity as well. So I really appreciate how you’ve been thinking
about that and how your work is helping to push that forward.

With all that in mind and the work that you’re doing, I’d love to get your thoughts on the sector.
What are you seeing now that you are saying, “Yes, let’s do more of that.”? What are you seeing
on the other hand where you’re saying, “You know what? We should be doing a lot less of
this.”? This is for both nonprofits and fiscally sponsored projects that are trying to raise funds, as
well as funders, because we’re all making up this ecosystem. I’d love to get your thoughts on
what should we be doing more of, what should we be doing less of?

[00:02:40] Jennifer Toon: Well, for sure. I think that in this sector that there should be more
trust-based philanthropy. I think that’s what they call it, where it’s, “Hey, y’all need some money
to do the vision that you want. Here you go.” We recently got a grant from the Hogg Foundation
through UT, which is reliable, flexible funding. It is general-operating capacity-building, right?
The form was easy, and it was my first grant that I’d ever filled out. I had a lot of questions, and I
kind of accidentally said the wrong IRS thing. They were patient, they were kind, and they were
like, “Yes. How else can I be helpful?” Then we were able to secure that grant.

There’s been other grants since then that I’ve looked at, that I’ve tried to fill out. It’s
cumbersome. It’s difficult. It’s tied to a lot of painful reporting. It’s like those things are important
because you want to be able to measure the outcome of, “Hey, I gave you this much money.
What were you able to accomplish with it?” I think, too, for system-impacted people that this is
new to us. We don’t have business degrees. Some of our women are getting their degrees, but
it’s not in business, and it’s certainly not where we’re at right now.

It’s like have some grace and mercy for little grassroots organizations that are trying to do the
work and man all the barriers when it comes to grant applications and reporting. Have a little
faith in us that we’re not going to run off with your money and go see Taylor Swift in Europe. You
know what I mean? As much as I’d want to, I’m not – have a little faith and trust in us. When we
got that grant from Hogg, it really wasn’t – we weren’t just excited. It was our first grant. But it
was because there was so much trust there, and there was so much value in what they saw that
we had already accomplished with very little money.

What to do less of? I think sometimes it is an automatic assumption that system-impacted
people can wait two or three weeks to be reimbursed or to be paid in terms of the community. I
know this is something I’ve talked about with several nonprofits. Well, we’ll reimburse you two
weeks, a month later. I’m like I’ve got to get people gas money for this event today, right? Today,
I need to be able to Cash App them. They don’t use all that other stuff. I know my community,
and I know my population. They’re going to use Cash App. They’re going to use Venmo, and I
need to be able to get funds to them immediately. Then that kind of puts the burden on me to be
able to reimburse all of that, right?

I’ve had some really hard conversations with some other nonprofits that wanted to work with us,
and to be able to reimburse us was kind of a nightmare. It was like they just were not
understanding what the big deal was. It’s like, well, when you’re getting system-impacted people
from Houston to Austin, they need gas money and travel stuff. I need to be able to send it to
them immediately, and I have to meet them where they’re at. I can’t expect them to do all the – I
don’t always call fancy, but let’s call the other – fill out this. We have to be able to meet people
where they are at. If we’re truly going to work with a population that has tech needs, that has
different barriers with banking, we have to be able to understand how to do that better.

[00:06:09] Nic Campbell: First, congratulations. It’s always a great feeling when you receive
that first grant. I think it’s amazing that your experience was so positive because what it signals
to me is that that foundation approached you like a partner, right? We’re in this together, and so
how do we get to this shared goal? When we think about what we want to see more of, it’s
definitely more of that funder-grantee partnership that we were truly partners in this moving
towards this shared objective, as opposed to funder-grantee and when you get into those more
cumbersome processes that drain you.

By the time you’re gotten through the application, you’re like, “Do I really want to do this?” It’s
showing we’re not partners in this, right? This is our money, and you’re going to apply for it, and
you’re going to prove to us all the things that we want you to prove to us, right? It feels different.
Even the kind of award that’s being provided also can feel different, right? You’re talking about,
in the first instance, very flexible awards, general support types of funding, which is amazing. I
am a big advocate for just pushing for general support funding.

Then the more discreet, it’s for this purpose, these things. If this one, two, three things aren’t
met, then we’re not actually going to be able to give you the rest of the funding. It feels very
different, and it does not feel like a partnership. Like you said, you meet people where they’re at.
That only happens when you’re truly working together and collaborating. I really appreciate you
sharing all of that.

When you think about infrastructure in the sector, and we talked a little bit about capacity
building earlier, how are you seeing it show up for you when you’re going out for funding, you’re
applying for different grants? How are you thinking about capacity building and infrastructure
building as you’re – you still need to do the work as well, so how are you balancing that need of
how do I build capacity, get the funding for that, and also do the work? Are you seeing them
completely separate? Are you seeing them together? I just want to hear how you’re approaching
funding applications that way.

[00:08:25] Jennifer Toon: Yes. The bigger that we’re getting and really working towards our
own nonprofit status, right? What I’ve seen is when the women who have shown up to
participate, they’re invested, giving them leadership roles, the group deciding, right? Because
it’s still a very – I like to think that my leadership is servant leadership and this collective
leadership model that is this the role that you want. I think you’re really great at this, but what I
hear you saying is that you really like this. If this is what you really want to do, then what are the
ways we can continue to build towards that? Maybe I get a grant consultant with a little bit of
money that we have, right? It allows us to start investing instability.

So then if this is what you want to do, and you’ve already shown the organization that you’re a
strong leader, that you’re dependable, but this is the area that we actually are excited about,
then let’s figure out ways that we can supply you with the tools you need to do that, right? Then
once you start giving people the tools that they need, they will flourish. They will. I mean, I look
at our group as a whole, four women that started fresh out of prison, not knowing how a
nonprofit works. Then learning how nonprofits work and wanting to do things even a little bit
different that feel more community-based. When you give people the tools to do it, they will.

That opens up, well, now I have somebody helping me do the grants, right? Now, I have
somebody that’s helping write the letters to the women on the inside, right? That’s why you have
a team. I think it can be hard, too, right? In another space, I was taught, “Jennifer, I want to hire
you full-time. We don’t have the long-term money for that, and that’s going to set you up for
failure.” I need to build these infrastructural things like someone to do admin because me as the
executive director, I cannot continue to do all of this by myself. I cannot. That is not growth.

To be able to invest in team members, you take the money that you have. I’m a spiritual person,
and I remember the story of the widow with the coin, right? Invest what you have from all that
you have, and it will come back. It will multiply. We’re seeing that already, and I think that we’re
on the right path to continue to build that structure, to hold that together so that we all have the
capacity to do what our role is.

I’ve told the girls I now will start being responsible for a lot of things. That means I can’t go to
this rally or I can’t stop and go get the food all the time. I need everybody to really start focusing
in on their roles because we all have different responsibilities. But as long as you have the tools
and the funding to do that, you just continue to build that structure.

[00:11:17] Nic Campbell: No, agreed. I really appreciate when you’re talking about investing,
right? That’s how I think about capacity building. That’s how I think about infrastructure that
you’re investing in something. Like you said, once you do that, it’s going to multiply, right? Once
you give folks the tools that they need and you do that through partnership because you have to
find out, hey, what is happening so that I can understand, and we can determine together what
are the tools that you need. But once you make that investment, then it flourishes. Then you can
have these conversations about rules and responsibilities and priorities. Then it gets you to that
ultimate goal, but you have to make that initial investment.

I just appreciate your insight there. I mean, all of your responses, Jennifer, have been just very
thoughtful and insightful as well, particularly when you’re talking about leadership and this idea
around exceptional leadership comes from being very self-aware, right? Self-aware enough to
understand where you need to be safeguarded and where your strengths are as well because
that allows you to then lead a group of folks towards a shared vision and goal.

I also appreciate how you’re thinking about just partnership in grant making, right? This idea
that, yes, I’m applying for funding, but it doesn’t mean that we’re not partners. That partnership
will show up in the process, and it will show up in the way they’re engaging with you, they being
funders, and how you are collaborating ultimately towards that award, which at the end of the
day should be as flexible as possible. I really appreciate you sharing all of that information and
just knowledge with us.

I want to ask you a question that I ask all of our guests to help us continue to build knowledge
through books and people we should learn from or about to close this out. What book do you
think we should read next, or what artist do you think we should be paying attention to?

[00:13:16] Jennifer Toon: I love a good question like that, and I won’t belabor Taylor Swift.
Everybody knows that she’s my queen. But a book that meant a lot to me, which I do want to
say about Taylor Swift. Watch her business strategy. It’s incredible. But the book that meant the
most to me that I still go back and read once a year. I read it. I took notes, and I have a little
notebook that I have from prison that I put all my notes in when I would read books. I worked in
the library for 10 years. I came across a book. It’s an older book by Viktor Frankl. It’s called A
Man’s Search for Meaning.

The book is broken up in twofold. His first experience is he was in a concentration camp or two,
and he was a psychiatrist. Then the second half of his book, he really talks about his philosophy
of therapy, which I believe he calls it logotherapy, logo meaning wisdom and meaning. Through
his journey in this concentration camp and watching human behavior and really digging into the
question of suffering, he discovered. He believed that it is our duty to find our meaning in life.
Once we have meaning and purpose in life, that’s what everything hinges on.

He said, “Now, meaning is not rooted in suffering. The point is to say I can find meaning in
suffering, but I don’t need it”, right? The most meaningful thing to do is get rid of the suffering.
But if it’s there, where do I find the meaning and the purpose in all of my experiences? For
someone who had experienced so much in my younger life and then growing up in prison, you
often feel hopeless. You feel without purpose. I remember my dad’s advice one time when I was
telling him this in visitation. He said, “Honey, you have to live where you’re at.” It kind of went
hand in hand with that book, and I knew that as long as I found meaning, I would thrive.

Before I moved to Austin, I was working two jobs. I was working Subway and Goodwill, and it
just was crushing my soul. It had to be done. I had to, and nobody else would hire me in rural
East Texas. A friend of mine told me one day on the phone when I was on my break, she said,
“Jennifer, I knew you in prison, and I never heard you this miserable.” I said, “You know what?
Girl, let me call you back.” I quit my job that day. I’m not saying that’s the right thing to do, but I
knew that what was happening to me is that I had no purpose or meaning. I was taking out
trash. I couldn’t find meaning or joy in what I was doing. So I said, “God, I know that I want to
help people that were in my situation. I don’t know what that looks like. I’m just going to have
that trust.”

I got in my car. I went home. Then maybe two weeks later, I found the fellowship, applied for
that. Then two months after that, I was living in Austin. It is important for us to always follow our
heart and our passion that it be rooted in meaning because without meaning and purpose, there
goes hope. There goes the will to live. There goes everything.

[00:16:23] Nic Campbell: I’m going to share all of the information about the book, A Man’s
Search for Meaning, in the show notes so that folks can read it. It sounds incredibly powerful.
I’m so glad that you read it and that it touched you that way because here we are talking about
Lioness JIWA and the amazing work that you all are doing. Thank you again so much, Jennifer,
for your time, your wisdom, and your insights. I think that what you’ve shared here today in our
conversation is going to allow other leaders to build bravely. So I just want to thank you.

[00:17:00] Jennifer Toon: Well, thank you for having me. I get so passionate talking about the
stuff that we work on, so thank you so much for having me.

[00:17:07] Nic Campbell: Thank you for tuning into our conversation titled Creating Capacity:
The Role of Fiscal Sponsorship and Justice Reform on the Nonprofit Build Up podcast. If you’re
interested in learning more about Build Up Companies, please visit ww.buildupcompanies.com.

[OUTRO]

[00:17:25] Nic Campbell: Thank you for listening to this episode of Nonprofit Build Up. To
access the show notes, additional resources, and information on how you can work with us,
please visit our website at buildupadvisory.com. We invite you to listen again next week, as we
share another episode about scaling impact by building infrastructure and capacity in the
nonprofit sector. Keep building bravely.

[END]