Nonprofit Build Up® Podcast

Listen to Part Two:

Katy Thompson, Director of Global Operations and Culture

Katy Thompson is passionate about sparking positive change globally. She holds a BS in Intelligence and National Security and an MS in Environmental Studies from Point Park University and has had diverse professional experiences that have taken her around the globe. Throughout her studies and career, Katy has focused on connecting food security and national security, sustainability, and innovation, finding simple solutions to serve as powerful tools for social and economic development. Katy firmly believes that building effective organizations with robust infrastructure is the key to making a measurable impact.

At Build Up, Katy is responsible for managing The Build Up Companies’ processes and operations around the globe. She directs a portfolio of projects to strengthen the Companies’ internal infrastructure, and ensures that systems, processes, and policies are in place to support internal operations as well as our clients’ work.

Outside of the office, Katy is a 200-Hour Registered Yoga Teacher, specializing in yoga for addiction and recovery. When she is not working or on her yoga mat, you can find her getting lost in a good book.

Transcript for Part 1:

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:08] Nic Campbell: You’re listening to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. I’m your host, Nic Campbell. I want to support movements that can interrupt cycles of injustice and inequity, and shift power towards vulnerable and marginalized communities. I’ve spent years working in and with nonprofits and philanthropies and I know how important infrastructure is to outcomes. On this show, we’ll talk about how to build capacity to transform the way you and your organization work.

[0:00:38] Stefanie Wong: Hi, Build Up community, we’re so glad you’re tuning in. I’m Stefanie Wong, Build Up’s Executive Portfolio Manager. Today’s episode of the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast is a special one, celebrating the five-year anniversary of the Build Up Companies. We’re kicking off this milestone with part one of a conversation title, Building Bravely: The Journey of the Build Up Companies, with Katy Thompson, Director of Global Operations and Culture at Build Up Companies, and Nic Campbell, our founder, CEO, and managing attorney. 

This episode is particularly meaningful as we look back on the incredible journey of growth and impact at the BUC. Katy, who started as the very first employee reflects on how the organization has evolved over the past five years, from a small but mighty team, to a global leader in nonprofit advisement, and capacity building. Katy and Nic dive into the relational connections, brave leadership, and ever-learning mindset that has shaped the BUC’s culture and success in the pursuit of excellence. Tune in to hear more about the challenges and triumphs that have defined Build Up Companies, and how the values of bravery, excellence, being relational, and being ever learning will guide the organization into the future.

[EPISODE]

[0:01:54] Nic Campbell: Hi, Katy, and welcome to the Nonprofit Build Up.

[0:01:58] Katy Thompson: Hi, Nic.

[0:01:59] Nic Campbell: I am so excited for our conversation. I’m looking forward to hearing your insights about the Build Up Companies and your journey. This conversation is going to be similar to the kinds of conversations we’ve had with other leaders on the podcast, just to get their insights about the sector and the way that we’re working and the way that we approach the work. But it’s really different and unique in a sense that we are talking about building up at the Build Up Companies. You were employee number one at the Build Up Companies, so I’m just really excited to hear about your growth from all the way back then to now, and just all of the insights that you have about the work that we’re doing and how we’re doing it. I think it’s going to be a great conversation.

I know that we’re going back and forth in terms of our questions. I’d love to turn it over to you to get us started.

[0:02:58] Katy Thompson: Thanks so much, Nic. I’m really excited to have this conversation, and it feels a bit surreal to be where we are right now. I know we always talk about that, but it’s really exciting and motivating. So, to get us started, I am going to ask you, what initially inspired you to take this step of starting the Build Up Companies, and how have you maintained strong relational connections with clients, partners, and our team as they have grown over the past five years?

[0:03:25] Nic Campbell: Yes. I appreciate that question. When I think about the Build Up Companies, it really came out of all of the work I had done over the years at the different nonprofits and philanthropies that I had worked at and with. What struck me was the kind of work I was doing and who I was doing it with. The kind of work I was doing, I was really focused on grant making, complex grant making, grant making to organizations, individuals, literally around the globe. I was fascinated by the way culture showed up in that space, how we approached our grant making in different regions of the world, how we saw, how we funded different organizations, different people to do different things.

When would you fund an individual versus an organization? What difference would that make in the grand scheme of things? So, I really enjoyed the work I was doing. I thought that we were showing up in communities that had been forgotten about, that had been sort of left out of the conversation. People were problem solving around them more problems that they perceive that they were having without thinking about how that community could actually be the problem solvers. To really be given the resources to lead conversations that were about them.

The work that I spent a lot of time on was exactly that, trying to make sure that the grant making was equity centered, that we were centering justice as well, that we were centering communities that were really impacted. The other piece of this was, who I was doing it with, who I was doing it for. The folks I was doing it with, we were taking risks, we were being brave in many different ways. I’m going to talk about bravery, I’m going to talk about being brave at the Build Up Companies a lot, and it’s part of our core values. But it’s really thinking about how do you show up differently when you understand that equity is the goal, that justice is the goal, and how do you take that step of showing up as authentically as you can while still moving things forward.

I really enjoyed that dynamic of doing that really good work with people who were afraid to take risks and were informed about what risk management and risk leadership really entail. Then, just making sure that the most impacted communities were centered. So, I thought about how could I focus on that full-time, how could I look at it from not just the legal lens, but thinking about it from a sort of infrastructure building lens as well. Not to say that legal, you don’t have the ability to build infrastructure in that way, you do, but I think it’s a component of it.

Just thinking holistically about how I could do that and do it with certain types of organizations around the globe, and certain people, and really design and curate it. Just went to folks and said, “What if we strengthened organizations, gave them really strong infrastructure is to do their best work, to do the work that I’m talking about? What could that look like? What would it look like if we made sure that infrastructure centered people? So that people were really generating all of the strength and foundation of the organization, and given us the ability to leverage that or impact.”

That’s how the Build Up Companies was born, because people said, “Yes, please let’s think about governance, let’s think about how our grant making processes are aligned with our mission and our vision, and aligned with the way we want to work. Talk about how our teams should have the capacity that they need to be poised and positioned to do their best work.” That’s how we think about infrastructure at the Build Up Companies is how I was holding it back then as well.

People said, everyone I spoke with we’re saying, “This is what we really need. We need this focus on strengthening infrastructure so that organizations can be set up to do this kind of work long-term.” So, thought about it through – we always think about ecosystems. So, instead of just one entity to do this, where we build advisory group, that was the first entity that really kicked this all off. Focusing on management of organizations and building up infrastructure that way.

We also have the Campbell Law Firm, because there is a legal social impact law firm that can deal with legal aspects of the work as well. So, thinking about how those two play together, because they come up a lot, even in, for example, in the governance space. So, we have those two entities, and then we thought about, what about a non-profit capacity builder, where you have these projects that can be incubated and supported by folks who are historically marginalized, and again, have been historically left out of this conversation? So, what would it look like to give them the capacity to do their best work in a nontraditional way? Not having these budgetary minimums, not having all of these other requirements, but thinking about how we could approach fiscal sponsorship in a very authentic and brave way.

That’s how we formed the three Build Up Companies. They’re working in the same manner today, but that was really the sort of impetus behind everything. As we do this work, it’s important to think about who you’re doing it with and who you’re doing it for. Being relational is one of those core values that we have at the Build Up Companies. So, every time we do something, we think about how are we centering people in this conversation, in our work, in this transaction. So, I think, particularly when we think about the law firm and lawyers, I don’t know if relational is the thing that comes to mind for most folks.

For us, and I think all of our clients that, if you talk with them, they would say, definitely my lawyers, my general counsel, because we offer outsourced, and general counsel, office of general counsel services and retainers. I would think that they would describe us as relational that we really are based on relationships. We really focus on how we build relationships. We’ve done that internally and we also do that with the folks that we work with as well, because we know that it’s key and we have to make sure that we’re centering people.

I know that that was a lot of background to your question, Katy. I have a question for you. We talked about my inspiration for forming the Build Up Companies. I’d love to hear about your reason for joining the Build Up Companies or your reason for staying? 

[0:10:32] Katy Thompson: Yes. That’s such a good question. My reason for joining the Build Up Companies, I mean, when we first met, and I started to get familiar really with Build Up Advisory Group first. It was really early on in my career. I had just stopped working with a small nonprofit that was doing work in East Africa. I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do and the work I wanted to do. But I knew whoever I worked for and whatever I did, I wanted to make a positive impact in the world. I wanted to work with folks who are solving some of the most complex problems in a sustainable way.

So, I was freelancing, and I found the job posting for the executive assistant position, which seems like so long ago. When I read through all of the pieces that it would entail, the type of work that I would be doing in the role, and who I’d be working with, I was so immediately drawn to it, and I had to apply. I remember still to this day, the specific moment of writing out that proposal to apply for the position and how much I wanted the opportunity.

At that time, I had no idea exactly what I was getting into in terms of the wide spectrum of work that I would be doing and the people I would be working with. I think that that is one of the best parts of working at the Build Up Companies. What keeps me here at the Build Up Companies is that it’s not just Build Up Advisory Group, like you mentioned, it’s the law firm, it’s Build Up, Inc., our fiscal sponsor. It’s really a clear illustration of the complexities in the multiple layers that are within the nonprofit sector, and the multiple ways that we can go about building solutions, and solving problems, and working together to make a positive impact.

At the end of the day, that is what really keeps me here at the Build Up Companies, is the why and who I get to work with on the team, but also who I get to work with outside of that in all of our partners and our clients. 

[0:12:39] Nic Campbell: You talked about the ark that you had at the Build Up Companies and you talked about that initial role as EA. What role do you hold now? What does your portfolio look like and the immediate priorities that you’re focused on that you think the folks listening might also see like some sort of parallels there too?

[0:13:01] Katy Thompson: Right. As I mentioned, I started as the executive assistant and I’m currently the Director of Global Operations and Culture at the Build Up Companies. What that entails is working across all three entities, making sure that our operations and culture are really strong. What that means is that we’re continuously looking at different areas of our operating infrastructure, such as human resources, information technology, general operations, including processes and protocols that impact our clients and impact our internal team. We’re building those out, we’re so relatively new. We’re getting to a point where now we’re in that refining process. We’re making them sharper. We’re making them more efficient.

That’s kind of the day -to day. Some projects that are within that is, we talked about the four-day workweek pilot on the podcast and we briefly mentioned how that’s going. It includes building out a career architecture, which is a multi-year project that is continuously evolving. I don’t think that it will ever be done, done, because things keep changing, and our team keeps growing, and the way we’re looking at the company is, it’s continuously involving.

We also have a very strong learning and training curriculum and program at the Build Up Companies. So, it’s overseeing that in partnership with our lead of people and culture, making sure that the team has the resources they need to grow professionally and personally, that we’re continuously learning from one another, and we’re in good communication. Those are just to name a few of the initiatives that me and the operations and culture team are currently working on.

I’d say that’s another big piece of this role now is that there’s a team. I have an operations and culture team. I have an operations associate and lead of people in culture that I work very closely with. to make sure that all of these projects and initiatives are moving forward in a really good way, and our infrastructure is continually being strengthened. It’s changing with what’s currently happening outside of the Build Up Companies, and it’s always evolving as we listen to what our team needs, and listen to how they’re working and what they need to do to not only meet their personal and professional goals, but meet the needs of our clients.

[0:15:13] Nic Campbell: Yes. Agreed. I think one thing you said really jumped out at me and stuck with me when you said you’re listening to what the team needs as we evolve. At the core of it is listening to what team needs. I think it’s critical when we call ourselves and we consider ourselves a learning organization. When you think about listening to team needs and the evolution from five years ago until now, you talked about career architecture, you said that there was an emphasis on learning and training. Talk to me about what that looked like then, what that looks like now, and how you navigated team dynamics, and foster collaboration in a very early stages of the organization and what that looks like now when we’re bigger.

[0:16:03] Katy Thompson: Yes. What career architecture and those team dynamics look like really early on is, obviously, they’re much smaller. They were also a place of, nothing had been created before. Every position that we were creating within the Build Up Companies, each career path, each conversation, even when it comes to how we’re navigating manager check-ins, that was all new, it was all crash. We were very much in a state of experimentation and seeing what worked, and what didn’t, and being open to make those changes. That has been a constant from then until now.

I would say, very much the size, but also very much being in that place of everything’s fresh, and new, and that’s okay, and we might have to change things. We know we’re going fast to change things, but not being afraid to step into those new spaces, and try something that maybe hasn’t been done before. Now, there’s been many steps like to get us from now until then, but where we are currently is, we have a lot of different positions. We have positions that are new. We’re continuously adding new positions, which is really exciting. We’re rethinking the structures that we built very early on. We’re rethinking those positions that we built very early on. Whether that’s title changes that really speak to what’s articulated in the job description,

and the work that the person in that role is doing. Whether it’s incorporating accountability plans to match with that job description and success profile to tie into all these pieces.

We continue to add layers and layers, but we keep that mindset of being open to change and knowing that it’s okay to try something and it’ll not work. It’s okay to try something and for it to be a success, but knowing that maybe down the line, that’s not the case. Definitely size and scale, but the thing that remains the same is that learning mindset. It’s that change is always a constant and it’s inevitable, but transformation is a choice. So, we really have seen the way we work as a team, the way we build a team, the way we think about the structuring of the companies, and the makeup of the position be transformed from where we started until where we are now.

[0:18:20] Nic Campbell: I love that so much. Change is a constant, but transformation is a choice. That is real. I think that speaks volumes. I really, really like that. Transformation is a choice. I have so many questions, Katy. Before I jump to that, the first question, you did mention accountability plan. Many folks out there listening may not be familiar with accountability plans, and I think it’s good to just talk about them, how we use them just to see how they might find some use for them in their organizations as well. Could you give us just an explanation around accountability plans, how we use them here? Then, I can get into some additional questions.

[0:19:00] Katy Thompson: Yes, for sure. How we think about accountability plans at the Build Up Companies really starts with the job description. Because we’re always starting with that job description early on when we’re hiring from the position and that’s where we start with the portfolio of work, and what the person in the role is going to be doing on a day-to-day basis.

The accountability plan is a step further, because it outlines the goals and objectives within that role. It takes that job description and it boils it down to very tangible goals and objectives that then we can take into our work plan, and people can build out metrics, and they can build out ways that they’re going to meet those goals and objectives within their accountability plan. So, it’s a multi -layered approach.

One thing I’ll also add about accountability plans versus job descriptions is that, at the Build Up Companies, we do a quarterly review cycle with our team. Which means, we’re having these conversations about our work portfolios on a very frequent basis. Accountability plans are going to change. Because again, we’re still so young, but also just the nature of the Build Up Companies is to continue to work. With that, we learn what someone in the role is actually doing versus maybe what we thought they were going to be doing in that role. 

Accountability plans are constantly being reviewed, at least on a quarterly basis. It’s a way that managers and their direct reports can have open and honest conversations about what they like about their role, what they don’t like about their role, what goals are they able to meet, what goals are they not able to meet currently, and why. It’s just a medium that helps facilitate those conversations in the continual learning within the organization.

[0:20:51] Nic Campbell: Perfect, thank you for that. One thing you talked about a lot is just being open to change. You talked about the accountability plans being reviewed regularly, and possibly changing, and having these quarterly review conversations, giving folks more time to course correct, and just really focused on we can change, we can evolve both as an organization and as individuals.

What comes to mind for me is, how do you think about that when you’re bringing folks onto the team? How do you, it just makes my mind go to recruit. Because if we’re talking about change and change is constant, I think people say that a lot. But when you’re sitting in an organization, a startup, a younger organization, things are changing, and you have to be flexible at the end of the day. How are you thinking about that in your role when we’re recruiting folks onto the team, when we’re thinking of building up a team? How do you put that out there from just the very start of the recruiting process all the way through to making sure that the team remains engaged and they’re not overwhelmed and fatigued by change? Ultimately, how are we managing change when folks are in the organization, but then how do we even screen for that in the very beginning to know that folks can come onto the team ready to engage in that way?

[0:22:17] Katy Thompson: Right. I think to answer the question, I’m going to start with the team and start with that foundation, because there’s definitely a thing, change fatigue. When things are all constantly moving, and constantly changing, constantly evolving, you run the risk of people getting tired, people getting worn out by that. A way that I have found to manage it within my team, within the Build Up Companies’ team, is to just have it be a natural part of the conversation, to have it be based in understanding, and listening and making them feel included.

It’s not just we’re not even feeling included, but including them in that process. It’s not a matter of the operations and culture team saying, “Hey, we’ve changed this, and this is what you need to do. We’ve changed.” Before we even go into making those changes, we’re first and foremost listening. We’re listening in team meetings. We’re listening in one-on-one conversations. We have our community wellness check-ins where we’re listening. We’re always stepping into a room with our ears open first and our eyes first before we start saying things, before we start doing things. So, it really starts with that listening and engaging with the team on an individual level. When you take all of that into consideration, you can really then make changes that have an impact and are well -received.

For example, using the recruiting process, we have a position open that we’ve hired for before. Before we go into that recruiting process, we’re having conversations with team members that work closely with that position. We’re having conversations with managers. We’re looking at the feedback we gathered from the onboarding of the person in that position previously. We’re looking at the feedback from the person that may be off-boarded from that position. We’re taking all of that into consideration and we’re saying, how can we take this feedback into the job description? How can we take this feedback and see how we structure the interview process or the interview questions? Are there filter questions or questions that we want to put on the application to help candidates really get a better understanding of what this role is all about?

Then, we’re able to at that recruiting process with a different mindset and we’re able to see what’s working, what’s not. We always create room within the recruiting process and any process within the build the companies to adapt, to shift, to make changes, and to pivot. Because you never know what you’re going to discover and to shut yourself off completely to say the work is done and go into the process thinking that it’s going to be perfect on that first go. It’s kind of setting yourself up for failure or frustration. 

I would say that’s how we go about it, and then you get the person on board. You’re bringing them into that same space and you make it very clear throughout the interview process and that onboarding process that we’re here to listen to you, we’re here to see you, we’re here to engage together. You start to build that very open relationship of communication and understanding, not just within me, if I’m talking to the candidate and the person we’re onboarding, but within the operations and culture team. You set them up to say, this is the team norm, this is how I’m going to communicate with the others on the team, with the people I’m working closely with. 

That is how, at least, how we’ve done it so far in the Build Up Companies. Again, it’s always evolving, but that’s what I’ve really seen as a key to building that relationship early on. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:25:54] Stefanie Wong: Thanks so much for tuning in to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. Where in this conversation, we focus on building bravely, the journey of the Build Up Companies. Join us next week to hear a new episode of the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. If you’re interested in learning more about how you can work with Build Up Companies, please visit http://www.buildupcompanies.com.

[0:26:21] Nic Campbell: Thank you for listening to this episode of Nonprofit Build Up. To access the show notes, additional resources, and information on how you can work with us, please visit our website at buildupadvisory.com. We invite you to listen again next week as we share another episode about scaling impact by building infrastructure and capacity in the nonprofit sector. Keep building bravely.

Transcript for Part 2:

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:08] Nic Campbell: You’re listening to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. I’m your host, Nic Campbell. I want to support movements that can interrupt cycles of injustice and inequity, and shift power towards vulnerable and marginalized communities. I’ve spent years working in and with nonprofits and philanthropies and I know how important infrastructure is to outcomes. On this show, we’ll talk about how to build capacity to transform the way you and your organization work.

[0:00:38] Stefanie Wong: Hi, Build Up community, we’re so glad you’re tuning in. I’m Stefanie Wong, Build Up’s Executive Portfolio Manager. Today’s episode of the Build Up Podcast is a special one, celebrating the five-year anniversary of the Build Up Companies. We’re kicking off this milestone with part two of a two-part conversation titled, Building Bravely: The Journey of the Build Up Companies with Katy Thompson, Director of Global Operations and Culture at Build Up Companies, and Nic Campbell, our founder, CEO, and managing attorney.

This episode is particularly meaningful as we look back on the incredible journey of growth and impact at the BUC. Katy, who started as the very first employee reflects on how the organization has evolved over the past five years, from a small but mighty team, to a global leader in nonprofit advisement, and capacity building. Katy and Nic dive into the relational connections, brave leadership, and ever-learning mindset that has shaped the BUC’s culture and success in the pursuit of excellence. Tune in to hear more about the challenges and triumphs that have defined Build Up Companies, and how the values of bravery, excellence, being relational, and being ever learning will guide the organization into the future.

[EPISODE]

[0:01:55] Nic Campbell: It is so critical to include folks in the change, and not just to say, this change is happening, let’s see where we can kind of plot the board, but helping them co-create and curate that change, and thinking, and strategizing about how to do that well is the core of all kind of change management and successful change management initiatives. Also, it’s really great to hear you underscore how you were doing that here as well.

[0:02:24] Katy Thompson: Yes. I think it really underscores one of our core values, which is being brave because it’s not always easy, but it doesn’t take that level of bravery. It takes a brave person to step into a work environment like that, where there is that open and honest communication, where you are listening and observing first. It definitely takes a level of bravery that is challenging, but is really rewarding. 

[0:02:48] Nic Campbell: Agree. Bravery shows up in so many different ways. I think, every day you just hear bold, courageous, and it’s like, there’s so much more to being brave in different spaces. That’s why we focus on bravery as opposed to boldness. Bravery is culturally competent, like it can show up in so many different ways.

[0:03:10] Katy Thompson: I have a question for you talking about all of these different things that we’ve done within the company, how we’re innovating, how we’re building, how we’re creating these systems and these relationships. As CEO, I mean, over the past five years, you’ve undoubtedly faced moments requiring this brave approach, brave innovation. Can you maybe talk about a time where you embrace that brave mindset and ever-learning mindset to solve a major talent or shift within the Build Up Companies’ direction?

[0:03:42] Nic Campbell: That is a really good question, and I was trying to think about, was there just this one moment in time that I can point to? I would say, it happens all the time. I would really honestly say, every week, every day, I’m constantly – we talked about listening to what is being said and what is not being said. Then, stepping in, how can we do this better? I think, at the core, what it requires of me is to be self-aware, and to check whatever ego. We often don’t think we have egos, but check whatever ego even if you don’t think you have one, because you do need to approach this with humility in order to be in that ever-learning position. 

I think, at the core of it, I just listen to or try to listen very carefully and intently to what is being said, what’s not being said, to then inform the things we need as an organization, and we need as a team. It requires me to step out of things, even though I have done the thing, even though I may love to do the thing. That’s requiring delegation. A core part of that is being self-aware enough to know just because you can do something does not mean you should. That, again, it’s a saying that people put forward all the time. But sometimes, it’s hard. It’s easy when it’s the things you’re like, “Oh, I don’t really want to do that, or I’m not that good at that thing. Sure, I’ll delegate it.” But when it’s something that you would really love doing, or you have been known as the person that has done that thing really well, and now, you have to delegate it to someone else, or ask someone else to support you on that thing, it can be challenging.

I think one part of being in that ever-learning mindset is like, what are the things that I can delegate so that we can get an even better result. And that I’m able to step back fully into a CEO role, and look at the organizations as a whole, to make sure that I am supportive of the team at the end of the day. That does take a lot of listening, a lot of learning, a lot of trying to understand, what are we doing really well, what am I doing really well, what am I not doing as well, what are we not doing as well, and seeing where we can kind of put folks where they need to be. 

I think about, has there been a major challenge? I would say, what comes to mind for me is not necessarily a major challenge, but I do think it was like a pivotal step in our growth, in our journey as the Build Up Companies, the career architecture. I think when it was you and me, and we’re working together, I think our styles are complementary. It’s like, what about this, and we even kind of bounce things off of each other and that works really well.

I think, even when we started, and it was just the two of us, we still had the career architecture in our minds. But I think we were fine at that point to say, hey – and also, there was just so much work that let’s focus on the work, we keep it in our minds, but at least the framework is there. When you start to grow as an organization, and you start to add more and more team members, you can’t just have that living in Katy and Nic minds anymore. I think, taking all of that and putting it down on paper, and then not just taking it, and put it down on paper as though it had already happened, it hasn’t happened yet. These are roles that we are literally creating and we’re thinking about the organization five years from now, 10 years from now, and trying to solve for things in the moment.

That to me was very challenging, but in a very good way at the same time. It did require us to be in this ever-learning mindset. It required me to be in an ever-learning mindset in order to approach that career architecture with consistency, setting yourself for the future, and just being clear that this is what we’re doing now, and we’re going to leave some space for evolution, and for things to change, and for us to be flexible. That also came up with, again, with team as it grew, and part of career architecture is advancements. What we are calling advancements, progressions, where we think about wage bans, like you’re moving up in responsibility, which you may maintain the same title, and you’re having an increase in salary and compensation.

[0:08:06]

Then, you have promotions, where you are now changing your title, increased responsibility, increased compensation as well. Again, putting that whole structure together, and what does that look like. When do you promote folks, and what does that look like, and how do you do that in a way that is aligned with our values. All the things you’ve been talking about, how do you then show up as a learning organization and do this in a way that’s going to resonate with the way you want to approach the work?

That, again, was challenging. It was a good challenge to have because I was so excited that we were at a point where we had to think about these things and we had to think about them in a consistent way. I think in those moments, we have to be ever-learning. You can’t walk in like, “I have all the answers. This is how it’s going to be.” Because you don’t, you’re literally creating things and innovating as we go, and being really intentional about it as well. I think about, again, all in this space, I think about how we approach folks who may be struggling with their portfolios of work.

Traditionally, you have a performance improvement plan. Once people see that come into to play, you’re kind of like, “Okay. How do I kind of make an exit?” There’s not a huge plan around it, ironically. So, rethinking that and saying, how do you support a team member in that space, and how do you give support to the manager who is working with that person, and collaborating with them, and giving them both additional resources, and what does that look like so that each person is feeling supported in a good way. Again, another challenge because we’ve never been confronted with it, but just thinking, or envisioning what it could look like, and what we want it to look like based on our organization. For me, those are just some examples, like some of the bigger examples. It’s happening every day. It comes up in engagements, the way that we’re talking about them, how we’re right-sizing them.

I think about our engagement scoping, our capacity scoping projects, where we’re now thinking about how much time should each person be spending in order to be engaging the work, be learning, professional development, all of those different pieces. You do have to put on, or just step into that ever-learning mindset, and embrace it really because you should never leave it behind or take it off.

[0:10:31] Katy Thompson: I love so much that you talked about humility within all of those pieces. Because I think, that is something that has really at least come up for me, and I’ve seen so much growth in my professional journey at the Build Up Companies. I’ve said to a lot of new folks joining the team when they’ve maybe struggled with that constant change and that ever-learning mindset is, I felt very much coming into the Build Up Companies as someone, I would say – I mean, I still am a to-do-with type of person, but that is how I approach my work. I would get projects in previous work settings, and I would complete the project, and I would be done.

I could wash my hands of it, and walk away, and that’s it. I would never hear of it again.

Coming into the Build Up Companies, I think it comes up in a startup environment, but I also think within a learning organization. You start a project that you’ve never done before, or you’re trying to approach it in a different way. So, that alone is scary. So, you take a step into that. You put something down, and you build something out, and you spend hours, and hours working on this, and you deliver it to the team, and you’re getting their feedback.

Then, it comes to the application of the thing, because as you said, a lot of these things, we are thinking, we are future thinking. We are thinking, this is going to come up in the future, we wanted to have something prepared. Then, the thing happens and you apply what you’ve built and you see all the different gaps or things that could be better. And you really have to tap into that humility, and be willing to try again, and to start over, or to start from a different place or a different mindset. But I think that has this in so many of our projects that you mentioned in your answer. I think that has been such a key in the success and the continued success of all those pieces.

[0:12:18] Nic Campbell: Agreed. I think you have to get very comfortable with saying, “I don’t know, but I’ll find out.” I think when you’re at the beginning of your career, or maybe folks are not at the beginning of their career, they’re just not comfortable saying that, that folks like that too. But you have to get very comfortable in saying that, because you are in this ever-learning mindset, you are being brave enough to say, “I don’t know. That’s a really good question or that’s something that we didn’t contemplate, but how are we going to figure it out?” 

That to me is the crux of the thing, the critical piece, how are we going to figure this out? I am less concerned about someone knowing all the answers, and I would be very concerned if someone said I do know everything. That [inaudible 0:13:04] me. It doesn’t concern me when someone says, “I don’t know. I really want to focus on, okay, how are we going to problem solve this thing? How are we going to figure it out?” That’s where the collaboration comes in, and that’s where the bravery comes in, and the way we want to move, which is an excellence to get to the right solution. So, I’m with you.

There’s a beauty in revealing gaps. There’s a beauty in revealing like the missed pieces. There’s also a beauty in getting where you want to go. It may not be as you envision, because we’re still looking like, “Oh, there’s a gap there. There’s a delta between where we wanted to, what we envision, and where we are.” But we’re still moving towards our goal. That to me is really beautiful. If you have the opportunity to identify and lift up those gaps, then you have the ability to problem solve. Again, it’s like a gift. So, I really appreciate you just calling out like, that’s how we go into things. Then, we see the gaps and we start to problem solve.

[0:14:07] Katy Thompson: One more thing I’ll say on that, that just came to mind is this idea of, one of our core values is the pursuit of excellence. I find that, and even myself, I still kept myself doing it, is equating perfection with excellence. I think that’s kind of a hard thing to reframe. So, having those conversations about the difference between perfection, and excellence, and that imperfection, and that constant pursuit of just trying to be better, and do better is the pursuit of excellence. That is excellent. I just wanted to call that out. I thought that was really an interesting thing. I’m continuously having to reframe and also having conversations within the team about reframing.

[0:14:50] Nic Campbell: Yes, agreed. I think you learn that when you start to engage with others, collaborate with other folks, and realize, and this is what came to me around perfection versus excellence, because you do have that struggle. For me, when I think about perfection, I’m like, it’s so ironic because you’re constantly focused on trying to get it perfect. But what you’re really doing is centering yourself, and saying, “This is my idea of what I deem to be perfect, and so I’m chasing that,” when you are actually working with a team or you’re working with a client. It’s about understanding what the shared goal is and how we’re all defining excellence to strive for that. It’s sort of irrelevant what you think perfection is, because perfection, objective perfection does not exist.

I look at something, I’m like, “Oh, that’s perfect.” Someone else looks at it and says, “No, it’s missing A, B and C.” So, it’s clearly is subjective and it’s based on my interpretation of the thing. If I’m working with others, how can I just say, my thinking trumps everyone. So, I’m now going to be focused on perfection just for me, as opposed to like the shared goal. I’m glad you called it out, because we’re constantly thinking about that, because one of our core values is the pursuit of excellence. And when people who aren’t within the Build Up Companies hear that, they might think perfection. 

We spend a lot of time just thinking about, like, no, it’s not perfection. It’s about pursuing excellence, and making sure that we’re giving high-quality work as well. I love that. Katy, I have so many more questions for you. I know that we are coming up on time. So, what I want to do is make sure that we set up a part two for this conversation, because I have other questions around what it looks like when you project out over the next five years, what are our goals around people and culture, how are we trying to have our core values continue to show up that way in our own internal infrastructure. I’ll also want to hear how you’ve seen any sort of organizational challenges sort of evolve over time, and what are we sort of forecasting out in terms of again, next five years, and go forward, and how we are building an infrastructure to withstand all of that, and help us mitigate those things. 

I have many more questions for you and I want to make sure that we continue this conversation. So, it’s just a teaser. I think that all of the insights that you shared and the conversation we’ve been having, again, that phrase, change is constant, the transformation is a choice. It’s spot on. It’s the way it really describes the way that we’re approaching the work and the reality of the situation with change and being in a younger organization as well. You also called out like listening to team needs, to then inform the kind of work we want to do, and making sure that we are co-designing, and co-creating with a team that’s going to be impacted by the change.

I think that’s easier said than done, but you are really showing how we’re doing it. Then, the challenges and questions that are coming up in that space as well. So, I really think that your callouts have been really powerful. I think it gives some insight into the way you are building infrastructure at the Build Up Companies, how you are engaging with people, and teams, and our culture, and making sure that we’re building that up. I’m not – 

[0:18:36] Katy Thompson: Look at that.

[0:18:39] Nic Campbell: But how we’re building that up, and maintaining that, and the same kinds of conversations, and principles, and values that we share with our clients, we’re also living it out loud within the Build Up Companies as well. I really appreciate your time today and our conversation. To close this out, I want to ask you a question that I asked all of our guests to help us to continue to build knowledge through books and people we should learn from or about. What book do you think we should read next or what artist do you think we should be paying attention to?

[0:19:18] Katy Thompson: As someone who reads many books, this is a very difficult question. But the first book that came to mind that really made an impact on me, I think it was at the end of last year when I read it was Wolfpack by Abby Wambach. It’s a super short book. It’s based on her speech that she gave, and it really breaks down these very basic principles of leadership. It comes from her experience of being the US women’s soccer team captain and leading them through world cups and gold medals.

I think, yes, it’s like a hundred pages, and it just breaks these principles of working within a team, being a part of a team, and leading a team that is so attainable, and so accessible that we can start to see a huge impact on all of our relationships personally and professionally.

[0:20:11] Nic Campbell: Nice. Well, thank you so much for that recommendation. We’ll make sure that we include it in show notes so that folks can take a look and read it as well. Particularly, since it’s such a shorter read, it will be truly nice. Again, Katy, thank you so much for lending your time and all of your insights and knowledge. I think that leaders listening to this conversation and to everything you shared will be able to take all of that in and use it to build their own infrastructures and organizations, and help them to continue to build bravely. Thank you again so much for joining us.

[0:20:54] Katy Thompson: Thank you so much, Nic. It’s been so much fun thinking about all the projects and things we’ve done together over the past four and a half years. And I’m excited to continue the conversation and discuss how we’re seeing the future at the Build Up Companies.

[0:21:06] Nic Campbell: Thanks, Katy.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:21:08] Stefanie Wong: Thanks so much for tuning in to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. Where in this conversation, we focus on building bravely, the journey of the Build Up Companies. Join us next week to hear a new episode of the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. If you’re interested in learning more about how you can work with Build Up Companies, please visit http://www.buildupcompanies.com.

[0:21:35] Nic Campbell: Thank you for listening to this episode of Nonprofit Build Up. To access the show notes, additional resources, and information on how you can work with us, please visit our website at buildupadvisory.com. We invite you to listen again next week as we share another episode about scaling impact by building infrastructure and capacity in the nonprofit sector. Keep building bravely.

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